Jeff, You continue hi-jacking my thread to push your repetitive agenda, even though you were previously alerted to the same behaviour.
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Jeff, You continue hi-jacking my thread to push your repetitive agenda, even though you were previously alerted to the same behaviour.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elitopus1
Hi ,
I know that that is not a SET amp. You misunderstood my writing. That is a solid state amp, it may, or may not, be single ended.
SET stands for Single Ended Triode. On this, I am sure, or I hope, we could agree.
Have a nice night.
Jeff Medwin, Low Ohms
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Dear Malcolm,Quote:
Originally Posted by mah
I have asked you, very nicely, in two different posts, to come up with a postive solution for us two to be able to post up here, with no difficulty. I offered a good solution, and yet, you seem to ignore any overture I make to get down to business, and resolve this between us. I have not heard a word back from you.
Instead, I get the same old "mah" accusation as above.
BTW, precisely what "agenda" DO I have ?
Who am I, Malcolm?? I am a DIY tube amp builder who likes to find the best possible way to do things audio. I am non - commercial.
Come up with an agreement we can abide to, for self regulation between us, maybe precisely the one I suggested, maybe an improvement. Lets get ourselves to an higher level than your above post. BTW, for the third time, where IS the data on thread " hi jacking ", and who determines that, ....you ??
Others are having a good audio discussion here. Opposite opinions prevail. But, for the most part, we are communicating.
How about you giving some intelligent thought to my proposal. We are both able to do this, if we are both willing. My suggestion was pretty good !!
Jeff Medwin ........Third attempt.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by westend9
IMHO, there is enough heat sink area to put those boards any location one wants to. You may think differently. We'd need to see Engineering data, thermal measurements. Sorry to see you upset. Sorry to upset you.
Jeff Medwin
The thread is about crossover wiring and the negligible effect of different wiring gauge.
You have used it to promote your repetitive unsubstantiated views in this and other non-related areas.
Not Malcom(b).
In a certain way, you are partially and technically correct. But you fail to acknowledge and to act at all, upon the larger issue, between us. I'm not here to cause grief, my intention was not that.Quote:
Originally Posted by mah
I have decided, as of tonight 3-8-17, to give myself at least, a one month's hiatus, from posting on this Forum.
If anyone wants to yack about audio, DIY amp designs, or ALTEC set up, etc, I am reachable at drlowmu @gmaiil.com.
Regards, happy music listening, and best wishes to all.
Jeff Medwin
Avoidance behaviour.
Sorry, mah, I was just trying to show some different wire to the crowd. Didn't mean to take your crossover thread so far afield.
No problem, Westend, you weren't repetitively pushing an agenda.
"We'd need to see Engineering data, thermal measurements."
Jeff Medwin
Engineering data? That voodo magic born of math, physics and the sciences? Jeff, I have been asking you over and over for data from your claims since you started. Not once have you complied, not once have you backed up one of your outlandish claims.
By the way, that Nelson Pass fellow ? Now he is an audio legend along with others. Explain who Fulton is again?
BillWojo
I was mulling this interaction over in my head. Sometimes, when confronted on the Internet by a less than reasonable fella', I'll react in an unseemly manner. Gotta' watch myself.
However, I looked at one of this Medwin's images of a crossover he built and ALL the leads are together, most of them touching each other and some wire tied. :rolleyes:
I see where he has been proselytizing about some magic wire length advocated to him by this Fulton fella'. They are, of course, both free to do as they wish. I think taking a sabbatical is probably a good idea for Mr Medwin. And I'll try to do a better job with my self control.
IMO the neatness of the work is one sign of a quality build. It also sets the professional apart from the DIYer.
Also if something cannot be detected by test equipment, or heard by the normal listener (probably most of us on this board) then it is not REAL.
Ya know, I feel the same way. Those layout and wiring skills didn't come swiftly. I had to observe others and practice what I saw to get even close to good. I'm sure if you work on airframe, the skill sets are even more rigorous.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elitopus1
Up here, in the frozen North, we even had Wankfest, an audio get together named after the late great Zilch's signature line where he stated "more measurement, less wanking" (or something similar). A lot of my audio buddies don't suffer any audiofoolery or snake oil products. Lemme hear it, please!
You write thisQuote:
Originally Posted by westend9
" However, I looked at one of this Medwin's images of a crossover he built and ALL the leads are together, most of them touching each other and some wire tied. "
To explain to you :
In any crossover picture you were viewing, notice the triple green-colored 12 AWG wires, ( effectively about 8 AWG ) . with all three wires twisted together? Those three wires are all in parallel with each other, and are held in place by a single P-clip, anchoring the heavy lead(s) on to the crossover's plywood board
That triplet represents ONE single polarity to the Input to the crossover, from my Amplifier.
The other "green-colored triplet", also twisted together, represents the OTHER single polarity, from my amplifier, to the input of the crossover.
Each bundle has its own P-clip, needed to secure the robust wiring to the crossover, and also, very importantly, the P-clips ensure the two polarities do not touch each other .
Music reproduction simply sounds best - that way to me, ( with my level of equipment and it's wiring implementations ) : with polarities separated over the entire distance, between the amp and the crossover.
On the crossover itself, you will see paralleled runs of TWO blue colored 14 AWG Mil Spec wires, which are each in parallel with each other, effectively equal to 11 AWG.
The output of my photographed crossover also has P-Clips around wires, to secure them, also to keep individual polarities APART, separated from each other.
Look please, a second time, carefully, and you can see all of this.
YMMV, particularly, and especially, if my one's amplification and wiring implementation is less than ideal, or mediocre as most are.
That is all.
OT: Looks like he took the bait:rolleyes:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Guy
actually, i have no opinion on this subject.
but i'll tell how i came to this.
in jr. high school, we were told, that when a voltage was applied to a wire, a current would result.
causing a magnetic field, in and around the wire.
as 'proof' of this, we were instructed to build small electro magnets, and then, a small, 3 pole motor.
also, were told that, transformers, functioned by this same principle.
very few people seem to remember, or seem to have ever known this.
including those whom are employed, by major electronics firms.
one person that gave me much grief, works here -
Analog Devices | Semiconductors and Signal Processing ICs
thanks for keeping things civil.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mah
Quote:
Originally Posted by mah
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elitopus1
trolling as a lo-cost 'sport',
is certainly a large part of human interaction,
at this moment in time.
i don't care for this sort of thing,
instead we could be advancing the state of the art.
not kidding ...
here is some information, about this Fulton fella'. -Quote:
Originally Posted by westend9
Fulton J Modular Speakers | Audiokarma Home Audio Stereo Discussion Forums
he also made recordings, had vinyl pressed, ect.
http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc...2017/03/39.jpg
http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc...2017/03/40.jpg
..................................
http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc...2017/03/41.jpg
Why?
the state of the art ....
Some of Fulton's speakers had good reviews in the occasional audio magazine at the time and there is a very small current fan-base out there. I haven't heard them, and because of Fulton's limited market penetration I doubt that many other folks have. The 70's was a time when loudspeaker designs were amazingly abundant and many are still held in high regard.
However, back to the OP. It doesn't matter how excellent Fulton's loudspeakers may have been/are, the internal wiring and crossover wiring could only make an inaudible contribution.
The starter solenoids are an interesting concept.
They're similar, if not the same as starter solenoids used by Ford thru the mid 1970's.
Somehow i get the feeling that Mr Fulton was not showing his loyalty to Ford by using them in his designs, i would opine there is more to it.
I wonder if they are modified somehow, or if the spring mechanism is left intact such that the core returns to it's home position when the current passing is below a certain threshold.
While the coil would in most ways be like a typical speaker choke/inductor, my wag is that it's "core" is what makes it special.
Since it's a solenoid by design, it's ferrous core is not rigidly fixed. Rather it "floats" inside the field unlike any other crossover inductor i'm familiar with.
Surely this floating characteristic of the core must in some degree contribute to electrical behavior that is unique compared to fixed or air core inductors.
In my mind, at low input power these solenoids would act very much like a fixed core inductor. But, when larger currents pass it would initiate motion in the core which would to a small degree change the electrical value of the coil.
Opinions, thoughts, comments?
Well mah, Mr. Fulton, designed a speaker that was the widest band I have ever owned ( 12 HZ to 110KhZ ). Over the years I intimately knew him ( 1978-1988 ), he consistently changed ( increased ) the wire inside his speakers, on the crossovers and from crossover to the drivers.Quote:
Originally Posted by mah
In the three-way woofer section, he designed in the mid 1980s he used doubled-up runs of about 10 AWG ( Fulton " Brown " speaker wire, equals about 7 AWG ) going to each woofer polarity.
This is totally opposite the "theory" you are trying to espouse in this thread, isn't it ? :-) It amazes me that someone with your intellect, actually seems to believe your thread's theory.
All I can say to forum members is your "theory" is opposite of what I have heard and experienced directly in audio, since the mid 1980s, my goodness....for over thirty years now.
Fulton Musical Industries - Biography
Fulton Musical Industries - Home
The solenoids were, I think, possibly from Packards, and maybe 6 Volt. They called them " Wroinkers" at the Minneapolis shop, because that was the sound of a car motor starting on a cold day. I see RWF's ex-VP in about five days, and I will ask him their origin.
Robert Fulton " collected " Packards, see his biography. A wroinker is NOT an ideal part in my estimation, measures about 1.5 mHY but at a highish DCR. That part, however, may have sonic attributes RWF liked, its really hard to say.
Have fun. I am. Respectfully,
Jeff Medwin
I was just thinking out loud. I thought it was kinda funny. I don't take speaker wire threads seriously. Everyone uses what they want and thats fine with me.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomt
Lots of speaker wire threads and trolling over at AK. Most of the wire threads get locked there. Lol
I'm waiting for Bowtie to draw up the schematic......
Being a Chevy guy the loyalists would crucify me as soon as they saw that big old Mopar ballast resistor(top left of the network) on the firewall. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by RonSSS
Hahaha! And the Mopar guys would do the same because of wasting a perfectly good Mopar part.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LowOhms
I just came across this thread and I have a question for Jeff. Apparently he uses 2 to 4 pairs of 12 AWG wire between amplifier and crossover. He has now come to the conclusion that he needs to use 16 or 18 AWG between crossover and compression driver not to lose the high frequencies. If 12 AWG loses the high frequencies, wouldn't they have been lost already between the amp and crossover? Just askin'
Good question. Out of the amplifier, ( in my case, usually a 2A3 SET ), we have a step-down output transformer, so the signal is being beneficially run at higher currents on the secondary.Quote:
Originally Posted by Boli46
With the higher current step-down of the output transformer, we can beneficially use larger wire, for example, double or triple 12 AWG m22759/11 as I suggested , depending on length, ( shorter length is better for most low-powered SET tube amps).
Such wire, because of its construction, having high quality mil spec silver plating, when driven with higher current, can be used amp-to-crossover - and maintain a good transfer function, and wide bandwidth, optimally.
Once you get to the crossover, you have a different situation.
The signal is then going-through / driving parts ..... like Inductors and Capacitors. So, in the crossover, and after it, requires a slightly different wiring approach - to optimize a final result.
Specifically, after ( my DIY ) crossover, I like to run double 12 AWG to each woofer polarity, a 515B, and single 16 AWG wire, to each 802D polarity. I employ single 57 1/8th inch Fulton lengths. Always m22579/11 Mil Spec wire, for my ALTEC speakers. NO stock ALTEC press-to-fit connectors ever used, solder directly to drivers, carefully, and very very thoughtfully.
I hope this makes sense to you. If you have any additional questions, feel free to contact me, email or phone. Would be glad to assist.
One other minor tip, when I parallel wires, I prefer to keep the Mil Spec designation writing on the paralleled wires pointing in the same direction, same direction as the wire was manufactured in the factory, all two or three wires. Easy to do.
Have FUN !!
Jeff ..... Low Ohms
Jeff just do the coat hanger vs monster cable test. Blindfolded.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LOUDER
On WHO''s audio system ??
Jeff
Your of coarse. I couldn't tell the difference. Google it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LOUDER
Yes, I Googled read that. Thanks !
Here is " my " take, and you may be different, which is OK :
(1) They were just inexperienced listeners,
(2) using unfamiliar material that was not their references,
(3) and AVERAGE middle-of-the-road audio equipment,
(4) that can't really sort-things-out, at a high level.
(5) " blind" testing, in such circumstances, does NOT add a bit of validity to their conclusions.
It takes a system where NOTHING is " losing it ", to be able to make good audio listening determinations.
LOL, it does NOT take special hearing, ( nor having an " ELITEST" attitude Phil G.), nor a mega-budget - just a KISS, well-set-up system, .......anyone can tell things easily on THAT system.
********
Most audio systems are TOO complex, and they "lose it", along the way, in any one of a number of places.
********
So, on the audio system they used, its not surprising to me at all ......."no one could tell anything" !!
Best wishes,
Jeff Medwin.....Low Ohms